“IT-хлопці – це нові рок-зірки, але з фокусом на швидкі гроші” – Jeremiah Fowler [ENG, UA SUB]

[Music] [Applause] [Music] live [Music] hi man hi man good to see you again good to see you it's been a while sometime yeah yeah because of uh coronavirus and all of this stuff if you've been far away from here in the u.s yeah just recently arrived yeah i bought tickets in november for march uh 10th and then when i left on march 10th march 11th the airport was closed wonderful i literally got out one day um yeah so i've been self-quarantined in the woods in america uh-huh back to the hood back to the hood yeah man uh it's so so unusual to see you know have a pure american guy in ukraine who who actually understands ukrainians very well because we've been uh knowing each other for around 10 years yeah and you pretty clear understand what how we think how we work how we approach challenges etc on the other hand you you keep the fresh view on the things so how did you manage to get into this eastern europe country and what was the reason for you to you know to to get deep in all all these things in tech industry in i.t and all this stuff and still be be a pure american guy yeah i'll give you just kind of a short summary i always make the joke that i'm a cultural translator so i i cultural culturally translate the american mindset is very clear we have this mindset as long as you do the right thing and you're always doing good money will just come in the door not true um where the ukrainian mindset is very different it's like what's the roi what's the roi what's the roi what's the ri you know no matter what is roi uh return on investment so so like the ukrainian mindset is i gave you five dollars you should give me 150.

As fast as possible as fast as possible yesterday and um so it's very difficult sometimes to understand the difference between those two because what will work on ukrainian clients like your marketing your messaging would never work on americans or you know because we're just not used to that aggressive style mm-hmm um so you have to be able to put the the the wording the terminology and the messaging somewhere in the middle because you know the ukrainian logic works for making you know this fast money yeah where in america it's like i'm gonna get a dollar today two dollars next week and then you know so there's this very slow growth model and of course i'm not talking about revolutionary startups or anything but to go back to your question uh i jokingly say i was an economic refugee who had to come to ukraine when from us from the us i worked in real estate and finance and for those of you that don't uh pay attention to real estate and finance news in america in 2007 we had a really bad economic crisis it was the sub par without that actually it hit later before yeah it hit everywhere one year before then so in 2006 i could have got your dog or a cat a 200 000 house loan with no documents yeah and they would have been like yes little cat dog buy buy a house so everybody got a loan yeah and what happened and you were in this market yeah i was an agent and i was also i worked at a bank and did loans and what happened is the real estate market went up income didn't go up so every year you had this you know bigger gap between your bills and your cost of living and then your income and so what happened is out here people were borrowing more and they were getting credit cards and everything to try to fill that gap then they were earning right and then it it just dropped off right and uh yeah so that's when here was the same situation actually yeah yeah i remember the bubble weight yeah i remember when the grievo was five to one i also remember yeah yeah those were those were those were hard times actually you know you just show up to work one day and it's like wait a minute no work yeah yeah there was nothing um so that's uh you know i came to ukraine i started working for a company that did um they sold products and services online they had a very like unethical division it was in 2008 or seven oh it's 2007 seven already so it's 14 years here here yeah off and on like i go back for a while i come back here for a while ukraine is a really good base i would say quality of life here it's actually cool i mean you're in a capital city we're one block away from an opera you know you have infrastructure you don't have it in u.s kind of this this quality no you do but you know the thing about ukraine is kiev being the capital all other little cities want to come to the capitol right and in america you have 50 states and each one of them has a capital you know so you can go into big cities yeah yeah i mean there's tons of big cities so you can almost find the climate you want yeah uh the environment yeah yeah so so america is really diverse like that where in ukraine kiev is the center of everything right which we are sitting in the center of everything yes we are no parking no ever here yeah i should i should have spent 20 minutes to find a parking spot yeah yeah and you did good usually i was running fast up to that but i like it i walk here um so i got started you know i had always known a little bit of technology like some some very basic like html and you know some some real simple coding so i knew kind of that logic of technology and then i started working for this company and that's where i really picked up this like black seo which is search engine optimization and i learned all of these tools tricks what does it mean black seo i mean you came to ukraine yeah yeah yeah so there was a reason to come to this country right so the first impression what was the first impression and first interactions with the local business so i'll give you my first impression of ukraine in 2006 i guess was the first time i came here yeah i was just tourist then but the way that i described ukraine when i went back home um was that you could drive on the wrong side of the road with a goat tied to the roof of the car and a baby riding the goat all three of you are drunk and it would cost you twenty dollars to get a ride home from the police and that's the way i described it to my friends yeah and i mean it was true actually it really was in those days so it was just chaos so it's been really nice for me to actually see this transition of ukraine going from this wild chaos wild east to basically you know a very modern you know emerging europe i would say even so yeah yeah i would say definitely you know in all of my travels i i've seen ukraine change for the for the better um it's always been a a technology hub and of course this is just my uh impression of that any time that you have an emerging culture society uh you know especially after the collapse of the soviet union yeah major industry was taken by you know foreign people for few people i'm not going to use that word that sounds a lot like criminals we don't talk about politics or football around here right um so anyway the the traditional core industries like metallology pharmaceuticals these things were gone right from the economy young people knew that if they were smart and educated and they learned in digital technology and there are a lot of them yes so it was the only way that young smart people could earn money that had nothing to do with the government had nothing to do with oligarchs and so that's where ukraine really took off because while the forces that be were over here dealing with traditional business young people were learning coding developing you know building these global applications and software you noticed that industry right after your arrival to to cave uh no it wasn't so big then but as i grew into that market so i got started with search engine optimization not with tutoring no no i would be the worst possible teacher i don't have the personality for it i'd be like what the hell is wrong with you people um no english no english i would be the worst english teacher in the history of the world so um but as i got into technology i was able to how do i say get my foot in the door right and you know even the company that where i met you yeah uh i got my foot in the door with techniques that i had learned before yeah i see i special experience producing [Music] [Music] how did you learn it actually there was a demand on the market you know i worked for this company that was really gray and and i worked for the ukraine great confidence surprise surprise but you know so i worked for uh the white part of that company meaning that everything was above board it was by the rules by the law and of course that was by request because you know not only do i consider myself an ethical person but as an american i can get in trouble anywhere in the world and go to jail in america so so anywhere i commit crimes in the world i go to jail in america so i'm i'm always kind of like hey don't tell me what you guys are doing i don't know but these guys um used a lot of like spam software and different things so i was like oh my gosh teach me that you know and so i was really yeah yeah you can never have enough knowledge okay so for educational purposes i learned how to use these automation tools and it got me interested in that and i've always been a communicator i've always been able to talk you know even as um you know a public person doing music or anything like that i've always been a communicator so learning public relations was literally just defining uh the rules and the messaging and then putting that together so basically you found out the way how to articulate some specific things on uh to the customers or to the partners or to the to the network just like translating culture there are there's a need to translate technology terms in a way normal people can understand indeed so that's actually the what is pr in tech yeah absolutely you need to take away these highly sophisticated terms and put them in words that normal people can understand and makes perfect sense and how can you describe the i.t industry in few words at that time ukrainian locality industry uh it was almost like the wild west also yeah um and i knew people who were working for companies that made scareware and and did all kinds of like really crazy things um no offense to startups not that i was aware of i mean at that point i was really trying to learn everything i could i wasn't really involved because you know at that time i wasn't i knew i wasn't going to be some grade a uh developer or coding expert you're not a technician right right but i'm that translator and that communicator who can take understand the language yes yes you have to learn the language to explain the language okay so wild wild west uh what was interesting in that i mean wild west dangerous risky but you stayed there yeah yeah well there was a company that i worked for that uh that had a backup server somewhere in the netherlands waiting for raiders to come in and they had a one you know a one-click solution to wipe everything and yeah and then that way if the servers were taken yeah by you know mystery people who take servers yeah we don't know that we don't know them we have no idea who they were but uh so this way if if that happened they had a backup and their customers had no downtime um so i mean that's what i mean when i say that it was the wild west in in the aspect of in america we have so many laws and regulations you do have oh it's i haven't yeah that's some of them it's ridiculous yeah yeah that's right um but you know it almost feels like it hinders creativity because there's there's a lot of specific regions regions yeah you you have this free spirit but all around all the other spheres they're highly regulated actually very highly regulated so in that aspect ukraine really was this wild wild west with a lot of freedom to grow fast yeah true and and industry did that yeah very quick not only outsourcing but product and r d and stuff right yeah and what what did you love about this growth about people uh what is the difference i mean you you mentioned regulation but you could go with this skills to silicon valley or to new york back back home and you can you work in in the regular i.t company in in your kind of familiar environment why did you stay here what did you like yeah and and i've had some offers to go in to europe easily yeah yeah the you know the only thing is and i mean this is for me personally um once you get to like in san francisco for example right you can rent a one-bedroom apartment for five thousand dollars a month and it's a good deal yes so but imagine the amount you have to earn right and then your your cost of living is so incredibly high where in ukraine for example um there's a lot of opportunity there's a lot of growth and your your expenses are relatively reasonable right here even in cuba yeah yeah i mean they're totally reasonable okay reasonable life star i mean expenses and stuff but what about people business itself uh well me personally you know i've worked with ukrainian companies and i've even done consulting for ukrainian companies to try to help them on pr matters um on pr and as well as their messaging and their branding for foreigners yeah because they why because they've been working on u.s and eu markets yes right yeah so you know now other than just basic consulting most of the work that i do is not in ukraine um as a cyber security researcher the companies are everywhere in the world so that makes it a lot easier because you know the first thing they see is i'm you know i'm an american living in europe so that already kind of you know gives me a little bit of how do i say my universal passport free pass good that's good and what is the key uh key advantages of ukrainians on the global market uh ukrainians or ukrainians yeah it industry with i.t companies from ukraine they're actually competing there's a competition with indians with chinese guys and other yeah markets i would say the level of education here is is extremely high i mean if you yes because if you get like let's say i mean even a previous company every every other like even the guy who was filling the coffee machine had a computer science degree right you know so to get that equivalent in the united states would cost you 200 000 in debt wow yeah i mean you would have to go to college for six eight years wow um and then you would accumulate all this debt you would have to work for a decade just to try to pay off your debt before you can go and enjoy the value of having that degree i got it and uh so that's a real value in ukraine i mean for for me as a foreigner the outside looking in is you have this hungry educated workforce you have good infrastructure um and then you also have this you know ukrainians have a really european mindset in that respect um you know so so there's a real value as opposed to um you know and i have nothing bad to say about the indian market i've done a lot of work with them um difficult in my experience but um you know i always feel like i'm at a market trying to sell potatoes whenever i'm working like with indian customers it's it's never and and that's a thing in american culture it's black and white it's like here's the price that's that everybody have a good day and and when you're dealing with certain other cultures it's this like infinite loop of negotiations which drives me crazy yeah for the western mindset it's too difficult oh it's exhausting yeah i'm like call me when you're ready yeah yeah we're somewhere in the middle that's true and uh okay so pr scales all this uh gray c optimization and stuff with this articulate right right approach and articulation how did you use it in in business uh what what kind of demand did you cover with that yeah so once i got into i started doing uh public relations under a different name with a previous company the the one that i uh did the search engine optimization and you know public relations is this giant mystery and for a lot of people they and especially ukraine because 20 years ago we don't didn't have this vietnam at all right i mean there was it's a foreign foreign word no specialist yeah and and in ukraine almost every company that i consulted with or worked with had had the wrong approach because they they took public relations and they put it under marketing public relations is not marketing no no absolutely not you sure about that yes absolutely because even in my mindset it's very close show me your passport but so they are close but think about the goal of marketing is to sell the goal of public relations is to build trust so if someone doesn't trust you they're not going to buy from you so these two are and with marketing and advertising they're close but with marketing and advertising you can monitor and track every dollar all right every click right with pr you can't especially e90 right but what's the value of a customer going hey i trust those guys i feel good about them very difficult to to it's a scale it's very hard to scale and so uh i studied public relations in london i took a course there and that was really awesome the company or the the school that provided this public relations training each week they had a new like instructor one of them was from pfizer one of them used to work for the royal family and they would come in and they would tell us these public relations nightmares these disasters yeah and we would all talk about it like real world examples like the pfizer for example uh the family has big experience in that especially nowadays there was well even while we were there we discussed one where uh australian radio host pretended to be britney spears and got through to like one of the princes on live radio and it was just this disaster and of course you know this was the person who was responsible for the messaging from and you know when you have a disaster like the pharmaceutical company a bunch of people died so imagine the crisis response right of it can't be about us it's about the people who've been hurt so this was such an awesome learning experience because not only did we learn about how to promote your positive messaging and your positive branding that supports sales but isn't marketing and sales and then you also had to learn about a real crisis right so understanding the crisis aspect of it helped you how how can you understand the crisis aspect what does it mean i mean in particular for tech industry uh data breach is a perfect example yeah because you know now it's very very common actually very common and and now with gdpr it's very expensive and when your customers don't trust you they won't do business with you again so if even so even even traffic purchasing won't help no no because you sure i mean because it's the model of most of the i mean well-known startups yeah with software you find good traffic you purchase it you go forward yeah i won't say hard no of course it's like throwing bodies at the problem you know um people don't trust ads people do trust earned media no now there's like several different types of of media earned media is we've done something good we've created a product that people really like and the news media goes this is awesome we're going to write a story about that that's earned media everybody trusts that now paid medias were you know like a sponsored post or something nobody trusts that nobody ah there's probably some old woman living in the mountains who's like i trust this um so you do not advise to to to make this sponsored uh articles videos and stuff in in in forbes well yeah i wouldn't say that because you sometimes your product or service is not special if there's multiple people doing the same thing right you're never going to get but usually it is so on the on western market yes so as part of your pr strategy it's it'll never hurt you to do that because then you can get backlinks no if if possible when it comes to public relations uh it's telling a story not you know i've heard this idea telling a story you have to tell a story uh for example one of the companies i worked for had an anti-theft so what we did we didn't talk about you know our new discount code our christmas sale um i'm seeing a bunch of these banners yes yes of course you find it what we did was we found advocates and told their story we told the story of someone who used that and their story was interesting oh because then you're you're talking about how a real person was helped by your product or service so it's like you know it's like a brand advocate but you're promoting this in a way where an average person can look at that and go huh i believe that i trust that that is how it could help me as well got it uh i know you as a person who can deal with black pr guilty yeah i mean it's a specific thing because in the competitive market yeah yeah not all the players use the uh good methods i mean ethical things uh how to deal with black pr i mean especially online yeah and and honestly if you think about negative reputation just look at politics for example like in the united states i mean regular politicians well any politicians okay they invented this strategy of destroying their opponents and this you should name the open and the pig yes and if you repeat it once again yes so the purpose of black pr negative pr is to damage the reputation of your competitor right you know and the mindset is i kill their reputation all that business comes to me right but there's nothing stopping this person from weaponizing uh you know search engine results or anything one of the uh ways that i would advise someone if they are being attacked by negative pr is to try to own your messaging because if you're not out there telling your brand's message telling your brand story somebody else will tell it for you either an angry customer you're popular yes even more when you're popular what i would recommend is of course try to fill all the space with your own messaging so for example uh take all of the negative keywords like your brand scam make youtube videos make articles create a blog network and when you own those keywords your competitor can't use them against you makes perfect sense yeah so that that's and i've got a lot of experience actually defending against negative pr and studying how people create negative pr oh how and what and why it's clear how how do they uh it's it's pretty easy i mean you know when google google gave value to backlinks back in the old days before they switched to the advertising revenue model and destroyed seo forever but those times you could weaponize backlinks so for example you could build 500 000 backlinks to a competitor website with chinese viagra links and google would just kick them out and then they went to uh everything was advertising based so then people started click jacking and different things like that or running negative keywords in the ads against a competitor content marketing with negative keywords is is huge i mean competitors do that all the time all the time and they also you know you have all of these customer review sites and of course there are some good ones that really try to verify but even those can be manipulated really easy they absolutely are um and i know companies that have dedicated employees to just troll their competitors reviews and so the bad part is there's something called the bandwagon effect and it's a psychology term where if you have a group of people here and one guy goes hey these guys suck hey these guys suck these guys suck and he keeps yelling it sooner or later one by one these guys are gonna be like those guys suck you know i can't tell you why or how but this guy believes it he's yelling loud so i trust him and and that's what happens on these review sites right and it and it can really hurt your brand so to defend against that you have to have a messaging strategy that addresses that and it can't just be a one-time thing like so for example if you're making youtube content you want to make sure that you're telling your customer stories you're telling success stories you're always uh promoting a positive image you can't you know get your ceo screaming going why are they doing this to us nobody wants that you you look like an idiot if you do that you can do it in your office yes yes but not online and and telling your customers stories telling how you really help someone and and having a plan to do effective public relations you have to do research to figure out what you're doing and why right and then you have to have a plan you have to implement that plan and then the last step of effective pr is to to have a summary or review of what went right like let's say if you wanted to increase x number of website visits youtube plays backlinks that's the only way you can effectively measure the result of pr you you can't tie it to marketing like you you really can't so the rule is not to tie pr to marketing it's it's it's difficult to do that actually because in my in the mindset of most of the business entrepreneurs and people pr is under marketing yeah yeah and in my american brain this is a mistake because these two are separate uh pr is the philosophy of your brand's promise what do you promise to your people where sales is how much money do we make this week and and the two have very different goals and what happens here's what happens i've seen this time and time again in ukrainian companies when one is under the other everybody's like yeah we're going to do pr it's going to be great they're going to love us and then it's like hey what's the roi this month and you're like we're making people like us and it's like no no no we need you to increase sales you know and then they end up just becoming a content marketing arm right of sales yes i've seen it over and over what happened and this is the main mistake i've seen a huge mistake because then not only not only do you lose focus but you lose credibility with media got it because your pr people they know are just an extension of sales like you know so they're not going to publish a free advertisement for you no legitimate news article is going to publish a free advertisement so what is the what is the ideal strategy for ic company which sells online services subscription model i mean war software so what is the ideal strategy on the international english speaking market yeah yeah so you want to um you you can do many different things but creating first your messaging and your branding and then you build almost like pyramid out of what is our brand's promise what are we going to communicate to people like not just simple content if you do content it can't be a one-time thing so for example if you have a youtube channel involve your customers involve you know how it is you're helping people maybe you do an educational tutorial uh maybe you have what's called owned media which is your blog uh that that gives information that helps people because when you have this plan that starts at the top everything goes under your brand promise when you have this plan of outreach and communication uh then you know what you're doing you don't jump all over the place and go wow we got an extra 100 clicks last month we're going to focus on this for now right um so you know you can't put everything in social media you can't put everything in a blog you can't put everything into just outreaching to journalists you have to create stories that people care about and that's the biggest thing is nobody cares about your service unless it's revolutionary and look at red bull for example they're like a pr you know masterpiece throw a guy out of a balloon in space amazing we're still talking about it all the time you know so there's pr stunts that people can do um that will generate but it has to be something of value that tells a good story not just some cheap you know hey we're gonna you know do a front flip out of off a bridge finally yeah you know yes um it's not only about traffic in software in this industry right oh well it is yeah i mean it is about traffic for sales and marketing um for for pr it's finding the right way to tell your brand's story you got it uh what is your brand story i mean as an individual you because you're you're not only a pr guy yeah you're a musician you're a security researcher how how how do you manage to to manage all these what is this as a security researcher i i got pretty lucky um early on that you know so i would find things like i would find data that's exposed on the internet and then i would basically write a report about it and we created a a blog which is securitydiscovery.com we created the blog and then we started just publishing our findings with the idea of data protection and you didn't have your own brand you know kind of as a security research specialist and yeah yeah positioning actually yes as a pr specialist there's the person who can spoke to who can speak to the publicity who can create pr strategies and stuff but you decided to go there how did you manage to do that what was the reason the the reason was it was just something that i was passionate about i mean really was passionate about protecting data right and i remember i contacted a group that had leaked some voter records and the guy tells me on the phone of course it's in america and he goes yeah he's like that's test data it's all dummy data and i'm like really i had already found my own name my own information and i told him i was like dude i'm looking at my own name here i was like i'm publishing this you know just and um so after the first bad pr from their side well that's the biggest thing with with crisis pr is to be transparent don't lie right if you're honest people will trust you if you lie um you know it just ends up creating this huge nightmare that you can never get out of and then your customers don't see you as an honest company so with our brand with security discovery once we had several big findings the media came to us so you know forbes came to us bbc came to us you know and and they were like oh wow tell us more about this story and i'm like as a former pr person i'm like this doesn't happen like how no let me sure yeah you know because i was so used to being told like no you're getting published in forbes yeah yeah forbes bbc techcrunch gizmodo yeah a lot of different outlets and of course this is many countless hours of combing through mind numbing data to find uh something and of course the bad part about even security research now is is it slowly dying because there's there's so many people there was this tidal wave of of companies that invested into security technology already before yes for the last decade right and so it's it's booming but it's almost the tail end of the boom in my opinion yeah yeah so it's almost the tail end so that's how we created the brand of of this the branding we got really lucky and now you know i have this great connection with media when i message them now it's they know that i'm not giving a product or service i'm providing them value actually a valuable story i'm telling a story and we're helping people in the process so you actually you build your brand yeah personal brand build the person who could be trust yeah and also you know how to build a brand for people and pr strategy right and what what is the main mistake among ukrainian entrepreneurs in pr crisis pr what is this the the main mistake especially like if you're launching a startup or a new product you have to fill the space and i mean the space online with right away right away right away get all of your um you have limit limit limitations i mean you don't you have to do it or it's going to come back and bite you so for example for example try to get all of the social media domains that that have to do include negative keywords so if it's like facebook backslash your product sucks um you know yeah yeah because if you don't own that stuff someone the first angry customer who's got a little bit of a problem a little angry they're going to fill that space for you and so if you don't think ahead it's all part of your planning process everybody plans advertising revenue that's it right you have to plan a business approach but if you don't plan your you know communication strategy or at least communications protection strategy somebody else will will do that messaging for you so ukrainians usually do not do that no because it's not something that it's not something everyone thinks about right away you know it's something you think about later when there's a facebook page and a big group dedicated to how much your company sucks and then you're like i should have did the same with data security right absolutely you can never with data security i hear this all the time they're like oh we already have a company that does that why do you have one there's no uniform strategy for penetration testing give more details about it what kind of companies what do they do what what is the service so there are companies that do active monitoring like meaning to see who's trying to penetrate your network right a lot of times it's a country called china a country called russia north korea iran so there's nation states that are always just collecting data data is the new oil right it's gold it really is and so speculating here that there's nation states that collect it and then there's bad actors that want to steal that data to try to target the customers in phishing attacks or something like that so there are companies that provide testing services for your network so they do a penetration test they try to find every crack in the door now here's the problem you have something called middleware middleware is like glue between software and your network and so let's say your network's good everybody's happy you got a firewall and now your middleware has a vulnerability so it can be a secondary path into your network and so the risks of data protection with with that change almost every update you know so you have to have a company that does penetration testing active monitoring to see who's in and out of the network um big mistake people make is they put all their eggs in one basket they only use one company right you should if you can afford it have two or three different companies penetrate try to penetrate your system it's not useless absolutely not i mean uh there was a statistic last year that the average cost of a data breach cost from beginning till end reputation sales everything it's like three million dollars wow over the lifetime of the business wow and there was another statistic that 70 percent of people surveyed didn't feel comfortable doing business with a company that had a data breach in the last two years wow yeah so i mean it's a big huge damage right not only pr but you know there's fines there's you know lost revenue so so taking i would say my advice would be not just to ukrainian but to anyone would be to invest in data security because if you're a digital business that is your business you know so it doesn't matter what you're selling if you've got customer data encrypt it and protect it got it and why and why people already saying that uh mostly about gdpr yeah as the as the trouble but not as the you know helping instruments the instrument that could help adjust your business or all these regulations they they look at it as the stopping you know as a blocker for business how can you use all these regulations to boost your business to adjust it to make it i don't know well to scale it the thing with gdpr something had to be done it had to be done because data wasn't like that no no of course not but i'm saying from as a as a consumer you buy a product or service hoping that your credit card your personal information you want that to be safe indeed and i tell companies all the time this isn't about your reputation this is about the people who trusted you with their information they trusted you enough and like in america for example if you leak a social security number date of birth that could ruin your financial life and you know so these are real people i feel for your reputation i really do um but if you ruin somebody's life there has to be some accountability for that gdpr was a very um it was a very crude tool that was just like okay we gotta stop the bleeding now it's not perfect but something had to be done to hold companies accountable for protecting data um it's a very very very like blunt crude tool you know and in america they're following a lot of states have this patchwork that that's but it's a nightmare too and you know and we try to yeah to manage all these regulations but it's very tough it's a nightmare and and hopefully there will be something that replaces that like a universal stuff in the u.s right yeah it has to be done because right now it's it's a it's a mess how can you earn in cyber security how can you earn yeah uh so i do a lot of speaking like i've been the keynote speaker for a big company that sells tractors um for their yeah yeah for their global privacy day i was their keynote speaker so i do speaking engagements i do uh like crisis preparation uh so you help those companies uh who has data leaks and stuff right yeah or you know someone who's had it uh and they need help recovering from it or or uh as a company we also do penetration testing as well you have a company you have partners yeah that company and one of them is ukrainian guy yeah yeah right yeah and how do you deal with that i mean ukrainian mindset your ass mindset it goes well um we jokingly say that we're good cop bad cop who's the bad cop yeah i'm the bad cop i'm the one who says all of the things that need to be said in very nice words and a bit painful right yeah yeah i mean you have to be honest with people i used to work for a guy in the mortgage industry who used a term called kicking the chair from under people oh because well in every in every business negotiation um both sides come in thinking they're absolutely right and they're going to you're going to see my point of view right and so what this guy would do from the start would kick the chair out from under and then you're already starting with the position of power in your negotiation right so um but yeah so that's what we do now is data research uh do a lot of speaking engagements do consulting will you advise uh community iit community security i mean researchers i mean security researchers to move forward into this industry or it should be shaped into some other things what is the next uh what is the next level of this industry yeah to say cyber security in itself it's this um it's this sphere where every school every university every trade school has been pumping out i.t experts right security experts for the last five to eight years i was a popular position super super popular you know so the the days of coming in fresh and starting and going straight to the top are done however if you wanted to join a team and be a penetration tester or you know do some sort of monitoring there's always value in that there's always companies that are looking for it security specialists but the days of coming in and just you know being a star yes are gone because even myself like when i'm searching for data right across multiple platforms um there's automated scripts and ransomware that have just destroyed everything so these scripts and stuff it's already a game of big big guys right oh yeah yeah you don't uh the days of the big companies leaking are really because they've invested so much money and like you remember this equifax the credit bureau yeah i mean they're still paying millions and millions of dollars every month for uh data protection or you know like credit monitoring for their their users i mean so it's this never-ending cycle of pain so what are the main mistakes ukrainians i mean ukrainian entrepreneurs in it make in the field of data protection focusing on revenue first above all other things oh you you need it um you know how can you take all this you have to make sure that you understand that all that money coming in you have to put something back you know you have to put something back other than buying yourself a new tesla [Laughter] but you have to reinvest in your business um and then you know when i was jokingly saying that i'm a cultural translator the difference in the american business model and the ukrainian business model is we don't have fast money no we don't have fast money i mean you might get a startup that does you know they call it a unicorn and it launches up um that does happen not quite as often but when the company makes money you have to reinvest and you have to understand how important data security is to your business because it really is a landmine it's a bomb waiting to go off um it will go up it will go off it's not so it's kind of a rule it will happen it's not if a data breach happens it's when it happens who found it and how bad it is uh-huh i mean so okay so in this case how to articulate the proper messaging to those companies what would you say to them be prepared have a plan have a crisis strategy create a communication channel within your entire network even if you're not for a big company even if you're not a very big company what i always preach when i do consulting i always tell the company to change the culture change the culture don't say hey just this guy's responsible for security everybody's responsible for security one of the most common mistakes i see is people who shouldn't have privileged access have privileged access for example the ceo the hr person they have no reason so have a plan have a reaction crisis plan make sure you know your permission structure inside your network and close it for people who are not there there's there's a really high percentage of uh data theft that happens from former employees yeah it's huge it's one of the highest i want to say it's in like the low 70 percent of all data breaches happen because they know how it works well sometimes it's not malicious sometimes they have uh sending just a database a link to the database to some of some partners so even even i mean so i've seen that yeah i've seen that and that's malicious but you know let's say they have all the credentials on their personal computer they have access to a vpn into your network having having someone and a team and a communication channel you should have data at or not just privacy but make sure that you have i've even told companies to create an internal bug bounty program so that way you involve all of your employees to find holes in your system bug bounty is basically a discovery reward for uh let's say i find a critical problem with your network or your data that's a great idea actually internal back boundary problem and then another thing we do is we set tests like uh we'll we'll we'll send emails right and put a link in there and see who clicks it oh wonderful and but the thing is when you do things like that when you set these tests to create this culture this positive culture uh you have to make it fun you can't punish that person and shame them in front of the room and and you know that's a problem here too sometimes yeah blaming someone yes it's a huge problem culturally it's a big problem in ukraine uh to to get mad to blame them but if you make it fun and you pull everybody in and you change that environment then people aren't scared if they make a mistake wonderful they'll own that mistake and go oh guys i'm sorry i did this you know and it works not only for data breach or data no not at all it's for everything and is it improving i mean our culture i mean data security culture pr culture among i.t entrepreneurs and companies i can't speak for pr because um but maybe you use some products and you see that the ukrainian services ukrainians are doing better with security yeah i would say there is a focus um and i've i've consulted with a few companies here on the branding messaging and then kind of just gave them some helpful hints and tips with uh with the security the biggest thing is to be aware of your own network who's got access to it and to have a plan of what to do when something happens and do they have that plan those guys most of them know still no no nobody has a plan until they go oh what happened guys they should have a plan before the crisis actually appears right yes absolutely uh how what is the simple things you need to do integrate into your business activity i mean so it's it could be bug bounty of course it's informing your staff about this kind of problem what else would you advise yeah and and this is something that we do or i do as a consultant also is try to put together a more complete plan of steps of things because when you have your data protection policy uh the the biggest thing to do is to evaluate your whole business model because not every particular perspective um from the internal perspective okay so the biggest thing is not to have this uh giant data protection plan that has all these many steps it's too big and it's not specific it's not you know specialized enough but if you are aware of the things you can do um it can help you in the event that there is a problem one ninety percent of the time the company has no communication channel got it of how to report it even internally or externally how to how to how to get the information about the trouble yes and another problem i see is they just find these third party bug bounty platforms and there's a bunch of them yeah i mean it's well established but they throw it off to them and then these guys treat it just like there you go eat a dick you know and the problem with a lot of those bug bounty programs is they pay so little that you're not going to get a legitimate security researcher to go in and penetrate your system for a hundred dollars you know there's no way you shouldn't you shouldn't rely on that no and and i get invites like every day it's like hey we're paying 75 bucks and i'm like enjoy your day um so when it comes to cyber security you can't not cheap thing right it's not cheap but at the same time you are reinvesting in your business if your business is your customers then your customers data is your business makes perfect sense uh very kind of straightforward uh question us or ukraine your next destination for business development uh ukraine actually ukraine yeah yeah i'm working on uh two startup projects with a friend from us and you know for one the quality of people you can get here versus the price and i mean one the cost of living in the us is so high even in in your local i mean your neighborhoods in your area where you've been born i'm 40 minutes outside of washington dc oh yeah so it's not a village so it's like a dc metro suburb everybody drives in the most wealthy county in the united states is two counties away from mine um so the the cost of a real solid you know i.t person or developer coder there is crazy expensive yeah not reasonable it's not reasonable and at the same time there's so much talent in ukraine when it comes to coding development and even the you know the it support is really good i mean if you need a remote support or anything you can get someone who's knowledgeable in that here for a fraction of the cost but you're not paying and see this is the big thing for me also like i don't believe in paying like slave wages i mean nobody people should get paid for their value yeah and it should be yeah absolutely and so when i say you know the cost is less there's this joke here in ukraine that it guys are the new rock stars well yeah yeah absolutely i mean these guys are damn that really yeah we i've seen you know many times a guy in a metallica shirt with a ponytail you know driving an amazing car with you know a supermodel girlfriend oh good i don't think that was by accident ladies but but it guys are the new rock stars in ukraine it's it's true uh you're also a rock singer retired yeah retired but he'll show us how you play right yeah yeah i'll play something but um so music i've played music my whole life music is one of those things where everyone needs a creative outlet yes no matter what it is um the the music industry in ukraine is really interesting because it's mass no no no it's it's structured in two ways so years ago in america i was in a band that had a record deal we played with lots of really big bands that wow that i grew up listening to but it was so much work and it was so hard and the amount of work versus the amount of pay just didn't match right so i grew up and i got a real job and then i started working but so when i came to ukraine all my friends were musicians so we started playing and then we got good and then we started recording and we had you know song on mtv m1 radio and so in ukraine the music industry is two tiered you're a bar band and you can play every night you can play all the time you have all the concerts you ever want and then you're a big band and you can't play at all you play like three shows a year and that's it anymore no one will come and see you right so we unfortunately became a big band yeah you did yeah yeah we you know we're opening for national acts and you know playing in big concerts but that's the thing what was the name or what's the name of the badge uh well there was antenna and then there was awesomatic but like automatic more than automatically they were they were different but um so you know and and the guys from my band went on to play with other people but uh but you know so once you're a big band and you go back and play bars you'll never play the big shows again so it's this you know right there's a very small window when you're famous in ukraine and all of the stars immediately have to sell a product or service with that fan base makes perfect sense how do you think will ukraine become a homeland of the unicorns homeland of the unicorns that's a good question is the one billion uh company yeah actually it's already kind of uh word for for the startups but i think uh you know if you even look at ring for example ring ah yeah so i think what will happen in ukraine is most of them will get bought out by big companies yeah yeah because you know when you have an idea it grows fast and somebody comes to you some amazon or google alphabet yeah yeah and they're like hey you know here's a few hundred million and you're like woohoo you know yeah so how do you think will ukraine become a homeland of the unicorns it's i i say never say never yeah um but if you look at some of the big companies that have been developed here they were just bought out so fast so i think that's you know because when you create a software or service or an application or a product you're always risking losing that market or somebody bigger coming into the market and you're losing it and super fast super fast it happens lightning speed right so i think just out of risk many ukrainian founders and startup uh they go okay that's big money no risk i'm out right and that's what happened with ring and you know i mean there's so i think you know is it possible absolutely um but i think the ukrainian i.t market right now is is very stable it's very solid i mean it's one of the top outsourcing destinations in the world sophisticated outsourcing absolutely the monkey jogger absolutely and uh you know there is this perception in the west that ukraine is europe i mean you know even in my american brain when when i talk to someone it's like hey you know where are you from awesome you know it's it's very different and i will say this many of the most hated companies in america outsource their customer service to india or or somewhere so there's this very negative perception in our brain it's not that they're bad people they're very technical they have the skills but it's this very bad perception when i call a company i hate for customer service and i hear that accent i'm just like oh here we go so subconsciously that is a added benefit right subconsciously that ukrainians have when when i hear that you're not you know the the the typical outsourced destination that we've known for the last 10 years or longer it automatically gives me pleasant feelings you got it i have an idea let's let's make an a kind of help for our local i.t industry from your site if guys will chat you directly or on in comments to this video you will answer on any question regarding pr and give some brief consultation maybe on some pr black pr white or apr strategy how to approach to tackle their challenge that they're facing yeah yeah and i i can't solve all problems in just one lines man i do what i can walking on water here but people you can write down on your questions your challenges that you're facing in in the comments and jay will will try to help you with two or three lines right yeah absolutely or you can uh email me the letter j at securitydiscovery.com and we'll leave this in comments for more complex problems i'll see if i can help you out but uh no man i think i think it's amazing time to be in technology there's so many opportunities in ukraine yeah absolutely um it's interesting in america silicon valley's moving to texas i know it's austin yeah there's no state taxes oh good yeah yeah in california you know just price went up taxes go up and so even community not not so matters already right yeah yeah and the pandemic has changed everything with the work from home model because before you needed to provide this amazing office this amazing basement yeah and so just such a large percentage of your income was going for your facility right and there's been study after study that people actually work just as good if not better from the comfort of their own home like i know me myself when i'm comfortable at home i'm working in the forest yeah yeah absolutely in the forest in my tree house in a tree house but i work twice as much so in closing i would say that it's a great time to be in technology focus on what's important focus on your brand messaging right equally as much as your revenue and you'll never go wrong jay it was a great pleasure to host you in jobs garage it's a new perspective on ukrainian and i.t market and totally new perspective on pr thanks man awesome man thank you cheers [Applause] [Music] yeah this is um how do i say this this is the american equivalent to uh salah and bush i agree with that so every time like every time i see this guy and he's like play guitar it always has to be you know [Music] good thanks man thank you guys

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